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Delegates to Confederation: | Delegates to Confederation: | ||
- | P 3 Some Notes on Kanangra Walls P Beaver | + | P 3 Some Notes on Kanangra Walls P Beaver\\ |
- | P 5 Banksias and Bilbies George Mawer | + | P 5 Banksias and Bilbies George Mawer\\ |
- | P 7 General Meeting Notes Barry Wallace | + | P 7 General Meeting Notes Barry Wallace\\ |
- | P 8 Notices | + | P 8 Notices\\ |
- | P 9 Red Centre Frank Davis | + | P 9 Red Centre Frank Davis\\ |
- | P 12 The Internet And The Lilo Maurice Smith | + | P 12 The Internet And The Lilo Maurice Smith\\ |
- | P12 Saving Time | + | P12 Saving Time\\ |
- | Advertisers | + | |
- | P 3 Willis Walkabouts P 4 EaStwood Camping | + | |
- | P 6 Alpsports | + | |
- | P 13 Paddy Pallin | + | |
NEW OFFICE BEARERS | NEW OFFICE BEARERS | ||
+ | |||
Congratulations to all office bearers elected at the Annual General Meeting on the 12th March 1997. They were | Congratulations to all office bearers elected at the Annual General Meeting on the 12th March 1997. They were | ||
Committee President | Committee President | ||
Line 76: | Line 74: | ||
Patrick James, Allan Donnelly, Bill Holland | Patrick James, Allan Donnelly, Bill Holland | ||
- | The Sydney Bushwalker March 1997 3 | ||
The following is an extract from the 1948 No 11 issue of The Bushwalker. | The following is an extract from the 1948 No 11 issue of The Bushwalker. | ||
- | We have all been to Kanangra Walls at sometime of our walking careers and here are some interesting points concerning that strange and wonderful | + | We have all been to Kanangra Walls at sometime of our walking careers and here are some interesting points concerning that strange and wonderful |
- | In all official reports it is called the Kowmung Wai(and it was not until recently,(comparatively speaking) called Kanangra.Even this is a misnomer;for it is a corruption of kanangafoo, as it was once called, being at the head of the Kanangaroo River. | + | |
+ | In all official reports it is called the Kowmung Wai and it was not until recently, comparatively speaking called Kanangra. Even this is a misnomer for it is a corruption of kanangaroo, as it was once called, being at the head of the Kanangaroo River. | ||
About 1890 Mr C. 1Nhalan was appointed caretaker and guide of the walls, and at his own expense and time, cut a buggy track along the same ridge where the forest road now runs. He was also the first person to call attention to the glorious scenery. | About 1890 Mr C. 1Nhalan was appointed caretaker and guide of the walls, and at his own expense and time, cut a buggy track along the same ridge where the forest road now runs. He was also the first person to call attention to the glorious scenery. | ||
+ | |||
The Trig Station at Kanangra was known as Paddy' | The Trig Station at Kanangra was known as Paddy' | ||
- | In 1889 Surveyor Leigh recommended the building of a road to the Walls to open up country suitable for selectors. | + | |
- | Leigh also reported that Cedar timber was plentiful in the nearby gullies and that the timber getters were sending it to market by means of the Cox's River, but, as the timber could only be carried down the creeks when they were in flood (approximately every ten months) this method was unsatisfactory. | + | In 1889 Surveyor Leigh recommended the building of a road to the Walls to open up country suitable for selectors. Leigh also reported that cedar timber was plentiful in the nearby gullies and that the timber getters were sending it to market by means of the Cox's River, but, as the timber could only be carried down the creeks when they were in flood (approximately every ten months) this method was unsatisfactory. |
The mud hut at Kanangra was constructed by an ambitious pioneer who had ideas about establishing a guest house there. The building was never finished owing to a shortage of roof thatching materials. | The mud hut at Kanangra was constructed by an ambitious pioneer who had ideas about establishing a guest house there. The building was never finished owing to a shortage of roof thatching materials. | ||
+ | |||
Grateful acknowledgment is made to the Mitchell Library from whence the above information was obtained. | Grateful acknowledgment is made to the Mitchell Library from whence the above information was obtained. | ||
- | P | + | |
- | South Georgia is a large (3755 sq 6), mountainous island located in the south Atlantic. It is about the same | + | |
- | latitude as Australia' | + | |
- | southern elephant seals, two million Antarctic fur seals, more than ten million macaroni penguins and an abundance of other birds. | + | |
- | Why go with Willis' | + | |
- | When? The trip begins mid to late October 1997.We won't get the boat if we don't act early. Please write or phone for details. | + | |
- | - | + | |
- | Phone:(08) 8985 2134 Fax: (08) 8985 2355 | + | |
South Georgia - Where' | South Georgia - Where' | ||
+ | |||
+ | South Georgia is a large (3755 sq 6), mountainous island located in the south Atlantic. It is about the same latitude as Australia' | ||
+ | southern elephant seals, two million Antarctic fur seals, more than ten million macaroni penguins and an abundance of other birds. | ||
+ | |||
+ | Why go with Willis' | ||
+ | |||
+ | Phone:(08) 8985 2134 Fax: (08) 8985 2355\\ | ||
12 Carrington St. Millner NT 0810 | 12 Carrington St. Millner NT 0810 | ||
+ | In his 'Red Centre Ramble' | ||
- | The Sydney Bushwalker March 1997 5 | ||
- | In his 'Red Centre Ramble' | ||
- | Regrettably, | ||
The following introductory excerpts from the book may whet your appetite. | The following introductory excerpts from the book may whet your appetite. | ||
+ | |||
European Seasons | European Seasons | ||
+ | |||
Urban people from European cultures usually relate seasons to a frame work of particular dates and weather patterns, but our seasons originally related to natural events rather than numbered days of the year. bursts of flowering and nesting, falling of leaves, falling of snow, times for ploughing or harvesting, and changes in day length were recognised, named, and celebrated in Europe for thousands of years before our present calendar was designed. | Urban people from European cultures usually relate seasons to a frame work of particular dates and weather patterns, but our seasons originally related to natural events rather than numbered days of the year. bursts of flowering and nesting, falling of leaves, falling of snow, times for ploughing or harvesting, and changes in day length were recognised, named, and celebrated in Europe for thousands of years before our present calendar was designed. | ||
+ | |||
European Calendars Don't Work For Australia | European Calendars Don't Work For Australia | ||
- | The British brought a calendar of four seasons of equal length to Australia. (In Australia the first day of each season was moved from the solstice or equinox back to the first day of the month for bureaucratic reasons). This calendar is appropriate to their small temperate islands with their fairly regular seasonal patterns, but it certainly does not match the climate of northern Australia, and relates only very roughly to the natural seasons | + | |
- | of southern Australia. Most aboriginal calendars had from five to seven seasons by which activities were carefully | + | The British brought a calendar of four seasons of equal length to Australia. (In Australia the first day of each season was moved from the solstice or equinox back to the first day of the month for bureaucratic reasons). This calendar is appropriate to their small temperate islands with their fairly regular seasonal patterns, but it certainly does not match the climate of northern Australia, and relates only very roughly to the natural seasons of southern Australia. Most aboriginal calendars had from five to seven seasons by which activities were carefully planned. |
- | planned. | + | |
- | In northern Australia a basic pattern of six seasons is now well recognised and widely used. It is based around wet and dry seasons rather than summer and winter, but in the south the old European calendars are still imposed onto our wide ranging and very unEuropean climates. | + | In northern Australia a basic pattern of six seasons is now well recognised and widely used. It is based around wet and dry seasons rather than summer and winter, but in the south the old European calendars are still imposed onto our wide ranging and very unEuropean climates. In recent year several people have attempted to design more appropriate and useful calendars for their regions. For example, naturalist Stuart Taylor, of the Conservation Commission of the Northern Territory, has compiled a calendar of five seasons from natural event data in the Darwin region. |
- | In recent year several people have attempted to design more appropriate and useful calendars for their regions. For | + | |
- | example, naturalist Stuart Taylor, of the Conservation Commission of the Northern Territory, has compiled a calendar of five seasons from natural event data in the Darwin region. | + | |
In the south, Alan Reid has suggested a new calendar of six seasons based on a similar analysis of extensive local records. Fr. David Ranson has published a proposal for five seasons for an area further up the Yarra Valley, in an attempt to relate European Christian spirituality to our different climate. | In the south, Alan Reid has suggested a new calendar of six seasons based on a similar analysis of extensive local records. Fr. David Ranson has published a proposal for five seasons for an area further up the Yarra Valley, in an attempt to relate European Christian spirituality to our different climate. | ||
The number and names of seasons, and the dates on which they start and finish, may not seem very important, but our continued use of a calendar designed for the other side of the world is an indication of how out of touch we are with our land. Our relationship with it reflects an imposition of old habits, rather than an attempt to work with its unique variability and extremes. Land management based on natural data rather than rigid and hopeless expectations may result in land use which is more sensible and sensitive, producing better outcomes for agriculture, | The number and names of seasons, and the dates on which they start and finish, may not seem very important, but our continued use of a calendar designed for the other side of the world is an indication of how out of touch we are with our land. Our relationship with it reflects an imposition of old habits, rather than an attempt to work with its unique variability and extremes. Land management based on natural data rather than rigid and hopeless expectations may result in land use which is more sensible and sensitive, producing better outcomes for agriculture, | ||
+ | |||
Residents of Melbourne have known for a long time that the European calendar does not match their seasons, even though they experience the most European climate of any Australian capital city. | Residents of Melbourne have known for a long time that the European calendar does not match their seasons, even though they experience the most European climate of any Australian capital city. | ||
Because knowledge of aboriginal seasons appears to have been lost for this area, the Field Naturalists Club of Victoria, the Gould League, and Melbourne Parks and Waterways have attempted to recreate natural seasons for at least some parts of the metropolitan area. | Because knowledge of aboriginal seasons appears to have been lost for this area, the Field Naturalists Club of Victoria, the Gould League, and Melbourne Parks and Waterways have attempted to recreate natural seasons for at least some parts of the metropolitan area. | ||
Using vast amounts of natural events data, collected by many people over many years in diaries and logbooks, the naturalists determined when natural events clumped into bursts of flowering, seeding, and changed animal behaviour, and were able to define six natural seasons for the Melbourne region. | Using vast amounts of natural events data, collected by many people over many years in diaries and logbooks, the naturalists determined when natural events clumped into bursts of flowering, seeding, and changed animal behaviour, and were able to define six natural seasons for the Melbourne region. | ||
+ | |||
Banksias and Bilbies available from the Gould League Sydney branch for $15.00. plus p&h. | Banksias and Bilbies available from the Gould League Sydney branch for $15.00. plus p&h. | ||
To order Phone 02 9817 5621. | To order Phone 02 9817 5621. | ||
- | The Sydney Bushwalker March 1997 7 | + | |
- | The crowd, including some 25 or so members, simmered gently in the slowly dying warmth of a typical Sydney February day. The president, having checked his papers one last time, called the meeting to order at around | + | The crowd, including some 25 or so members, simmered gently in the slowly dying warmth of a typical Sydney February day. The president, having checked his papers one last time, called the meeting to order at around |
Correspondence brought letters from Shirley Dean regarding the 70th Anniversary celebrations (again? Mother always did like having the last word), from the Hon auditor advising of his agreement with the annual accounts and praising the quality of work by the Hon treasurer in their preparation, | Correspondence brought letters from Shirley Dean regarding the 70th Anniversary celebrations (again? Mother always did like having the last word), from the Hon auditor advising of his agreement with the annual accounts and praising the quality of work by the Hon treasurer in their preparation, | ||
+ | |||
The treasurer' | The treasurer' | ||
- | Then came the walks reports. Australia Day marked the beginning, with a bout of inclemency over that particular weekend. Maurice Smith led his Ettrema Wilderness walk over two days, probably for this reason, but there were no other details. Spiro cancelled his Blue Breaks walk at Kanangra Walls car park. Tony Holgate and the party on his upper Kowmung River trip sat huddled together on Friday evening watching objects 30 metres away vanish and reappear as rain squalls came and went, sighed, ordered one more hot chocolate, and booked into the nearest motel | + | Then came the walks reports. Australia Day marked the beginning, with a bout of inclemency over that particular weekend. Maurice Smith led his Ettrema Wilderness walk over two days, probably for this reason, but there were no other details. Spiro cancelled his Blue Breaks walk at Kanangra Walls car park. Tony Holgate and the party on his upper Kowmung River trip sat huddled together on Friday evening watching objects 30 metres away vanish and reappear as rain squalls came and went, sighed, ordered one more hot chocolate, and booked into the nearest motel for the night. After a succession of pastry stops, plan Bs and other delaying manoeuvres the remnant of 4 hardy souls finally did a trip via Mount Solitary and Kedumba Pass. |
- | for the night. After a succession of pastry stops, plan Bs and other delaying manoeuvres the remnant of 4 hardy souls finally did a trip via Mount Solitary and Kedumba Pass. | + | |
- | The following weekend, 1-2 February saw Elwyn Morris leading a party of 9 on her Saturday Palm Beach walk. It seems even the day walkers were watching the weather by this time, the party numbered 15 the previous evening. Alas they were deceived, conditions were sunny and mild with a slight breeze. Eddy Giacomel' | + | |
- | February 8-9 saw Wayne Steele and a party of 14 enduring a very hot weekend on his Cox River walk. To add insult to all this, Galong Creek had a fair amount of water and provided such treacherous going that most of the party climbed the ridge to escape. Elwyn Morris ran her base camp trip to Kiama with a party of just two. Conditions were fine and sunny and none of the party are about to say otherwise. Maurice Smith led his two one day li-b trips out of Mount Wilson with 8 starters each day. Both days were described as a good trip. Ken Smith led both his Saturday and Sunday day walks from Glenbrook and Leura respectively. There were 8 on the Saturday walk and 3 on the Sunday trip. Don Brooks had 25-on his Sunday walk out from Springwood. Conditions were hot and one of the party became ill during the walk. Somehow or other John Hogan was mixed up in all that. The Coolana maintenance/ | + | |
- | Bill Holland' | + | |
- | shorter than average walks report for this month. We weren' | + | |
- | P. 8 The Sydney Bushwalker March 1997 | + | The following weekend, 1-2 February saw Elwyn Morris leading a party of 9 on her Saturday Palm Beach walk. It seems even the day walkers were watching the weather by this time, the party numbered 15 the previous evening. Alas they were deceived, conditions were sunny and mild with a slight breeze. Eddy Giacomel' |
- | a to the Winter | + | |
- | Observation. report was brief, concerning only two outgoing letters, to Sydney Water Corporation accepting their offer for a delegate to visit National Parks sites under their | + | February 8-9 saw Wayne Steele and a party of 14 enduring a very hot weekend on his Cox River walk. To add insult |
- | control as part of the development of plans of management for these areas, and to Bob Carr congratulating his government on the declaration of the 100th National Park in NSW. | + | |
- | General Business saw further debate on the 70th anniversary dinner proposal. Peter Miller, no, not the avuncular one, had come prepared with a schedule listing the features of the various possible venues to enable even the thickest of us to understand and exercise our democratic right to select the site most acceptable to us. There is every indication Peter had come to perceive the deeply-recalcitrant nature of the beast he was dealing with by now, as his sense of the ridiculous gradually overwhelmed his impatience with the process. There was one brief period of clenched teeth speak, however, when the very date and day for the occasion were questioned. Silly boy, he had thought we had that one nailed, at least, and indeed it turned out we had, as a proposal to move it to Friday night went down on a show of hands. A motion that we hold the event on the originally proposed evening at the Epping Club costed on 150 paying guests suffered a similar fate. The meeting definitely had the bit in its teeth by now, and a motion to not hold a dinner was passed, to drive an oaken stake through the heart of the beast before more serious schisms could be caused. They were happy enough to vote for a barbecue at Manly Dam Reserve at around $50.00 per head (plus $6.00 Parking charge for non residents Peter cautioned). That ended general business. If there was anything else offering, it would have been too much of an anti climax, whatever it was. | + | Bill Holland' |
+ | |||
+ | Conservation | ||
+ | |||
+ | General Business saw further debate on the 70th anniversary dinner proposal. Peter Miller, no, not the avuncular one, had come prepared with a schedule listing the features of the various possible venues to enable even the thickest of us to understand and exercise our democratic right to select the site most acceptable to us. There is every indication Peter had come to perceive the deeply recalcitrant nature of the beast he was dealing with by now, as his sense of the ridiculous gradually overwhelmed his impatience with the process. There was one brief period of clenched teeth speak, however, when the very date and day for the occasion were questioned. Silly boy, he had thought we had that one nailed, at least, and indeed it turned out we had, as a proposal to move it to Friday night went down on a show of hands. A motion that we hold the event on the originally proposed evening at the Epping Club costed on 150 paying guests suffered a similar fate. The meeting definitely had the bit in its teeth by now, and a motion to not hold a dinner was passed, to drive an oaken stake through the heart of the beast before more serious schisms could be caused. They were happy enough to vote for a barbecue at Manly Dam Reserve at around $50.00 per head (plus $6.00 Parking charge for non residents Peter cautioned). That ended general business. If there was anything else offering, it would have been too much of an anti climax, whatever it was. | ||
Confederation report was brief, no meeting since last report, no report. | Confederation report was brief, no meeting since last report, no report. | ||
- | Announcements were next. There was an appeal that we all think seriously about the coming election of office bearers, but it will all be over before you read this. With that the meeting closed at 2145. | + | Announcements were next. There was an appeal that we all think seriously about the coming election of office bearers, but it will all be over before you read this. With that the meeting closed at 21.45. |
- | job Vacancy | + | |
+ | Job Vacancy\\ | ||
Persons for Social | Persons for Social | ||
- | Activities | + | Activities |
The position of Club Social Secretary was not filled at the AGM. So - as Social Secretary should be a fun job and not a hassle 7 It has been decided to trial a Social Activities Sub- Committee that would come up with ideas for each quarter. One of the ,Committee to be at the clubrooms on the night to act as presenter. (Not necessarily the same person each time.) | The position of Club Social Secretary was not filled at the AGM. So - as Social Secretary should be a fun job and not a hassle 7 It has been decided to trial a Social Activities Sub- Committee that would come up with ideas for each quarter. One of the ,Committee to be at the clubrooms on the night to act as presenter. (Not necessarily the same person each time.) | ||
This. is a chance to express your social organising skills so if you feel that you might like to be one of the Social Committee, phone Tony Holgate and talk about it. | This. is a chance to express your social organising skills so if you feel that you might like to be one of the Social Committee, phone Tony Holgate and talk about it. | ||
Hr 9428.5294 W9922 8790 | Hr 9428.5294 W9922 8790 | ||
- | Acknowledgment | + | |
- | The Club has received a collection of photographs from Kathleen Cosgrove, sister of William Cosgrove. These have been sorted and added to our archives. | + | Acknowledgment\\ |
- | Bill Cosgrove passed on about five years ago. He was a very active Club walker during the fifties, sixties and seventies. He was keen on getting into new country and was on many exploratory trips with Alex Colley and Frank Blayden and other explorers of that period. | + | The Club has received a collection of photographs from Kathleen Cosgrove, sister of William Cosgrove. These have been sorted and added to our archives. Bill Cosgrove passed on about five years ago. He was a very active Club walker during the fifties, sixties and seventies. He was keen on getting into new country and was on many exploratory trips with Alex Colley and Frank Blayden and other explorers of that period. |
- | Thank you Kathleen. | + | Thank you Kathleen.\\ |
Change Notice | Change Notice | ||
Katoomba to | Katoomba to | ||
Cartons | Cartons | ||
+ | |||
Please note that due to circumstances outside of his control, the Greg Bridge day walk listed for Saturday April 12 is now deferred by about a month to Saturday May 12. | Please note that due to circumstances outside of his control, the Greg Bridge day walk listed for Saturday April 12 is now deferred by about a month to Saturday May 12. | ||
The walk is listed as - 14 km medium grade, mostly fire trail, some exposure on Taros Ladder, car shuffle. | The walk is listed as - 14 km medium grade, mostly fire trail, some exposure on Taros Ladder, car shuffle. | ||
Line 161: | Line 169: | ||
Apology | Apology | ||
For contributions that could not be printed in this issue. This is due to postage limits being exceeded. These will all be printed in coming issues. Thanks Ed. | For contributions that could not be printed in this issue. This is due to postage limits being exceeded. These will all be printed in coming issues. Thanks Ed. | ||
- | The Sydney Bushwalker. March 1997 9 | + | |
I had visited' | I had visited' | ||
This Would be' a real visit. The lure of joining Don Brooks for thr weeks Of walking in the McDonnell Ranges Was irresistible. | This Would be' a real visit. The lure of joining Don Brooks for thr weeks Of walking in the McDonnell Ranges Was irresistible. | ||
Line 240: | Line 248: | ||
It is a place that would best be visited alone and in silence. | It is a place that would best be visited alone and in silence. | ||
Frank Davis. Sept/Oct 96. | Frank Davis. Sept/Oct 96. | ||
- | * BOOTS FOR SALE * | + | |
- | SCARPA TREK - THE BEST/ | + | |
- | * 1 pair LADIES - Euro 36 | + | |
- | BRAND NEW. | + | |
- | Brown Leather. | + | |
- | NEVER TREKKED IN! | + | |
- | $200.00. | + | |
- | * 1 pair MENS - (2 walks only) | + | |
- | Brown Leather. Euro 40 | + | |
- | USED BY A LIGHT TREKKER! | + | |
- | $185.00. | + | |
- | DETAILS: | + | |
- | MARK (w) 02 9283 5511 | + | |
- | or 018 222 643 | + | |
- | 12 The Sydney Bushwalker March 1997 | + | |
The nature of my employment is such that I am frequently inVolved with the modern world of electronic communications. | The nature of my employment is such that I am frequently inVolved with the modern world of electronic communications. | ||
+ | |||
An interesting instance of how it works to our benefit is shown in the slightly edited dialogue set out below. At one end of the electronic conversation is Roger Browne, a long time member of SBW who lives most of the year in England. Your scribe is at the other end. | An interesting instance of how it works to our benefit is shown in the slightly edited dialogue set out below. At one end of the electronic conversation is Roger Browne, a long time member of SBW who lives most of the year in England. Your scribe is at the other end. | ||
+ | |||
Message No. 1 was received by me on Sunday 19 January " | Message No. 1 was received by me on Sunday 19 January " | ||
- | I see from the newsletter that you limit your trips to 8 people, and am hoping that by getting in early I can request one of those places (for both days). | + | I see from the newsletter that you limit your trips to 8 people, and am hoping that by getting in early I can request one of those places (for both days). If you receive this email on or before Tuesday, perhaps you could reply to let me know whether I should bring my wetsuit and Lilo. Otherwise, |
- | If you receive this email on or before Tuesday, perhaps you could reply to let me know whether I should bring my wetsuit and Lilo. Otherwise, | + | l'm looking forward to my time in Sydney, and especially to some enjoyable SBW trips during that time. |
- | l'm looking forward to my time in Sydney, and especially to | + | Regards, Roger\\ |
- | ' | + | |
- | some enjoyable SBW trips during that time. | + | |
- | Regards, Roger" | + | |
Message No. 2 - On Monday 20 January I replied "Hi, pack them! You're in. I look forward to meeting you. Give me a 'call in due course to arrange the details." | Message No. 2 - On Monday 20 January I replied "Hi, pack them! You're in. I look forward to meeting you. Give me a 'call in due course to arrange the details." | ||
Message No. 3 - On Tuesday 21 January, Roger responded " | Message No. 3 - On Tuesday 21 January, Roger responded " | ||
Line 272: | Line 267: | ||
US | US | ||
It was an excellent weekend that all enjoyed, especially those members who had never before experienced the fascinating world of Blue Mountain' | It was an excellent weekend that all enjoyed, especially those members who had never before experienced the fascinating world of Blue Mountain' | ||
+ | |||
A Few Ways To | A Few Ways To | ||
Make More Time | Make More Time | ||
Line 279: | Line 275: | ||
E Use time spent waiting for trains, busses, at the dentist or doctor' | E Use time spent waiting for trains, busses, at the dentist or doctor' | ||
lit Unplug the phone or take it off the hook. If you have an answerphone, | lit Unplug the phone or take it off the hook. If you have an answerphone, | ||
- | Ca Make lists: one of things to do at work, one of things to do at home, and another of people you must phone, | + | Ca Make lists: one of things to do at work, one of things to do at home, and another of people you must phone\\ |
- | 8 Don't put things down - put them away. Put things where you can find them again the minute you have finished with them. | + | 8 Don't put things down - put them away. Put things where you can find them again the minute you have finished with them.\\ |
- | I Learn to say `No' to things you don't want to do or that aren't really necessary. | + | 9. Learn to say `No' to things you don't want to do or that aren't really necessary. Take a fresh look at the things you do routinely and brainstorm some alternative ways of dealing with them. |
- | Take a fresh look at the things you do routinely and brainstorm some alternative ways of dealing with them. | + | |
199703.1570573364.txt.gz · Last modified: 2019/10/09 09:22 by kennettj